Liza Mazur on Migration Law, Client Trust, and Legal Practice in Ukraine

Liza Mazur is a Kyiv-based Ukrainian lawyer specializing in migration law. She earned a bachelor’s degree in law from Taras Shevchenko National University of Kyiv in 2023 and pursued a master’s degree in international law at its Institute of International Relations. Her practice focuses on immigration, legalization, citizenship, visas, residence documentation, and assistance for foreigners in Ukraine and Ukrainians abroad. Mazur emphasizes clear communication, client trust, individualized guidance, and professional legal representation across complex cases.

In this interview, Scott Douglas Jacobsen and Liza Mazur discuss Mazur’s transition from architecture to law, her education at Taras Shevchenko National University of Kyiv, and her development as a migration lawyer. Mazur explains her commitment to helping foreigners navigate Ukrainian institutions, documents, visas, and border procedures. They also examine cross-cultural communication, language barriers, trust between lawyers and clients, professional responsibility, and how individualized legal relationships can shape difficult immigration cases and their eventual outcomes.

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: When did you get interested in the law?

Liza Mazur: While studying architecture. My first education involved architecture prep courses because my father is an architect, my mother is a cosmetologist, and my sister is a dancer.

I decided to choose something connected with creativity. Because of this, I wanted to be like my father and become an architect. However, it was difficult for me to think about what architects draw and build. It is a great responsibility because people's lives can depend on it. I realized it did not really fit my psychological type.

After one year of studying architecture, I came to my family and said, "I do not want to build things. I want to be a lawyer."

In Ukraine, students took the External Independent Evaluation, or ZNO, for university admission after school. Depending on the profession you wanted to study, you needed results in subjects such as Ukrainian language and literature, English, mathematics, or history.

If you wanted to study architecture, mathematics was important. If you wanted to become a lawyer, history was important instead. I had prepared for mathematics and algebra because I originally planned to study architecture.

After about two years of preparation, with only six months left before entering university, I decided to study history instead.

Of course, that exam was my worst one because I had prepared for mathematics. Still, I entered Taras Shevchenko National University of Kyiv without any connections. In Ukraine, because of widespread corruption, there is a common belief that you can enter Taras Shevchenko University only through connections, for example, if your father or mother is a deputy or a famous lawyer.

That was not a problem for me. I started on a contract, meaning I paid tuition rather than studying in a state-funded place, because of my history score.

The highest possible ZNO score was 200. For the state-funded places, you needed a higher competitive score, and my history score was around 140.

However, they accepted me into the law program. Becoming a lawyer was not my biggest dream, but it became interesting to me.

After finishing my first year at university, I had high marks in constitutional law and English. My English is still improving, but English is very important for lawyers now because international law is growing in Ukraine.

English is one of the main requirements for communicating with and understanding international investors, diplomats, consulates, and politicians.

Then I became interested in migration law. At that time, there was no separate migration law course available to me at university. Maybe it is becoming more popular now, and some lawyers give lectures at universities, but it was not a separate course called migration law. You had to study it on your own.

Mazur: I started studying migration law during the third year of my bachelor's degree, and I started working near the end of my second year. It was difficult, but my first job was as a legal assistant to an attorney working in migration law.

Because of this, I started working in immigration law. Then I decided to pursue my master's degree in international law at Taras Shevchenko National University of Kyiv, at the Institute of International Relations rather than the university's main Red Building.

My course was taught in Ukrainian, not English. They also had English-language programs, but at the time I thought studying in English would be too difficult for me.

Jacobsen: It was not your highest aim at the time. Has your highest aim changed at all?

Mazur: My highest aim was probably to become a businesswoman. I wanted to build a team and a company that would take responsibility for helping migrants in Ukraine.

The main issue for me, and my main wish, was to help people in Ukraine who were not citizens. They needed help and someone they could trust. If you arrive in another country, it doesn't matter why. You can come to Ukraine as a journalist for work, for example, and perhaps you have only one person to interview. That is all. You do not know anyone here.

You need to ask someone about documents, your permitted period of stay, and other issues. Some lawyers may not be interested in helping, or they may say, "I do not know English. You can go to the migration service and ask them."

Ukraine's migration services have not always been well adapted for communication in English. Ukrainian is the state language, but English has become increasingly important for international communication in Ukraine.

My main aim was probably connected with something psychological. I wanted to help migrants in Ukraine, and I wanted them to have someone who could help with their documents, take responsibility for handling their cases, and help them communicate with government services.

This was especially important when dealing with the Border Guard Service. When someone enters Ukraine, officers may ask many questions about what they are going to do here. Ukraine may also have entry bans or document issues, for example, because of unpaid taxes.

People may not have someone who can explain this information to them. The tax system in their own country can be different, and they are accustomed to that system. They may not know how it works in Ukraine. Because of this, they need a person who can explain it and help them.

That is why I started working in this field of law. People are different, but I do not think of foreigners in Ukraine simply as foreigners. I see them as friends or as people like me. The only real barrier between us may be language.

But even language is less of a problem now. We have good tools such as Google Translate and ChatGPT, for example, which can help.

Jacobsen: I have travelled to many countries, and Google Translate is more than workable for bridging that gap. I have done many interviews with people who do not speak a word of English, and I do not speak a word of their language, but it bridges the gap. You take one extra step. Once it is translated, you translate it back and ask, "Does this reflect what you meant?" They say yes, and then you can publish it.

Jacobsen: My general position is to try to apply a universal standard and see people as people. But when I am dealing with someone, I am dealing with an individual.

Mazur: Yes, right.

Jacobsen: There are common refrains where people always refer to themselves as a member of this group or that group. But when you are dealing with someone, you are dealing with an individual.

I take the same general approach to my interviews. Obviously, people have different positions in society, different families, and different backgrounds. You take those things into account, but you are still dealing with an individual who happens to have that background.

Mazur: It is a slightly different mentality. My favourite clients are probably from China, India, Canada, the United States, and other English-speaking countries. There are definitely differences in mentality, but working with people from different backgrounds gives me much more ability to deal with everyone.

In my experience, Chinese clients can be very strict in a good way. They want everything documented.

They want your statements, your explanations, and the agreements to be clear. Even when they sign a contract, they may want to take a picture with you. When they come for a consultation, some bring chocolates or small gifts. If they have travelled through Chișinău or Doha, for example, they may bring a bottle of wine or another small gift. In my experience, some bring gifts for people they know in Ukraine or other countries.

With some Indian clients, the dynamic can be different. They may be very focused on the result and prefer to pay after seeing the result.

Jacobsen: Pragmatic.

Mazur: Yes. In my experience, some clients from India may initially have lower trust. There are many scams and fraudulent schemes in different places, so people can become cautious about trusting lawyers or people in another country.

Jacobsen: You could describe that as a relatively low-trust environment in some contexts.

Mazur: Low trust, yes. You need to show them why they can trust you. Some of my Chinese clients trust me very quickly, from the first meeting. Some Indian clients are more cautious at first.

Clients from Canada, the United States, and the United Kingdom may also be willing to trust you, but first they want to discuss everything. Then the trust develops.

Jacobsen: It is a more diplomatic approach.

Mazur: Yes.

But it can also be difficult because of language levels. With some Chinese and Indian clients, I need to use simple English. I cannot always use C1- or C2-level words. I need to use language they can easily understand.

Meeting someone like you is good exercise for my brain because sometimes you use a word and I have to guess what it means. From the context, I can usually understand it. That helps me improve my English.

But when we prepare contracts or begin a legal process, I contact my translators to help make sure everything is discussed correctly.

I don't want misunderstandings. Sometimes someone can misunderstand what is being said, or a service may not be described exactly as the client intended.

Jacobsen: A lot of thoughts come to mind from that last response. Most social mistakes are accidental. It is relatively rare to come across someone who intentionally says something specifically to offend or harm another person's sensibilities.

The second point concerns applying a universal standard while treating people as individuals. I tend to take a scientific view of the world and of human beings. I do not subscribe to supernatural explanations.

The current scientific evidence suggests that Homo sapiens emerged roughly 300,000 years ago. If you then consider the much more recent development of large-scale civilizations and distinct cultural traditions, it puts that in perspective. Everyone has language, for example.

Languages can differ enormously, though they share structural properties and recurring principles. I think something similar applies to human psychology.

When you interact with people, culture and language can create substantial differences, but beneath those differences there is also a broadly shared human psychology. Real individual and cultural differences exist, but they operate within that common human framework.

I do not think the fundamental differences between people are as large as the apparent differences. You can take a scientific and objective view of these things and, in some ways, arrive at a more humane treatment of people as individuals.

Another point concerns high-trust and low-trust societies. Neuroeconomist Paul J. Zak has conducted influential research on oxytocin and its possible relationship to trust and social behaviour. Oxytocin has well-established physiological roles, including in childbirth and lactation, and has also been studied extensively in relation to social attachment and behaviour. Research once suggested a relatively straightforward relationship between oxytocin and interpersonal trust, although subsequent replication studies and reviews have shown that this relationship is more complex and less robust than early findings suggested.

From an economic perspective, research also connects higher levels of generalized social trust with stronger economic performance. High-trust societies tend to benefit from economic cooperation, while low-trust environments can create higher transaction costs and weaker investment. In that sense, social trust can tell you something about a society's economic health and development.

Mazur: Trust is also one of the main parts of our job. If you do not trust your lawyer, you cannot really work together.

Even if you sign a contract and they pay you for your work, without trust from the beginning, it becomes very difficult to succeed in the case.

It also affects the lawyer's mindset. If you are working in a nervous environment where the client does not believe in you, it is difficult to believe that the case can become something successful or even something important for your career. Otherwise, you are simply taking money to assist.

Because of this, one of the main points is choosing whom you work with. It is not only the person choosing the lawyer. The lawyer also chooses the client.

Some cases I have won have seemed almost impossible at the beginning. Sometimes a person comes into your office wanting to pay for a case, but they tell you a lot about their experiences with other lawyers. They may say, "I started this case with another lawyer. He could not do anything. I do not know what to do. I cannot trust anyone. Maybe we can divide the payments into several parts."

You can see in their eyes that they want to trust you. They are beginning to believe that you can help them. If they believe in you and cooperate, the work usually goes much better.

That is how it works for me. I'm not sure whether lawyers in other fields work the same way. Different lawyers probably choose their clients differently, but this is one of my main principles.

If you trust me, we will try to win, and I will do everything professionally that I can to achieve a good result. But if we begin the process and you are already saying, "I do not believe in this. You can try, but I do not believe you can do it, and you will return my money if it does not work," then I will say, "We should not sign a contract. You can find another lawyer."

Jacobsen: Thank you very much for the opportunity and your time, Liza.

Scott Douglas Jacobsen is a blogger on Vocal with more than 200 publications on the platform. He is the Founder and Publisher of In-Sight Publishing (ISBN: 978–1–0692343; 978–1–0673505) and Editor-in-Chief of In-Sight: Interviews (ISSN: 2369–6885). He writes for International Policy Digest (ISSN: 2332–9416), The Humanist (Print: ISSN, 0018–7399; Online: ISSN, 2163–3576), Basic Income Earth Network (UK Registered Charity 1177066), Humanist Perspectives (ISSN: 1719–6337), A Further Inquiry (SubStack), Vocal, Medium, The Good Men Project, The New Enlightenment Project, The Washington Outsider, rabble.ca, and other media. His bibliography index can be found via the Jacobsen Bank at In-Sight Publishing, comprising more than 10,000 articles, interviews, and republications across more than 200 outlets. He has served in national and international leadership roles within humanist and media organizations, held several academic fellowships, and currently serves on several boards. He is a member in good standing in numerous media organizations, including the Canadian Association of Journalists, PEN Canada (CRA: 88916 2541 RR0001), Reporters Without Borders (SIREN: 343 684 221/SIRET: 343 684 221 00041/EIN: 20–0708028), and others.

Photo credit: Liza Mazur.