How to Link a Statement of Corporate Intent and L&D Strategy

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Melinda Varley, Learning and Development Manager for JAS-ANZ, joins Blake Proberts to talk through the importance of team in delivering strategic L&D, linking L&D strategy to your company strategy, and the key stages of building a LMS business case (and why data matters).

Thank you so much for joining us. Can you tell us a little bit about your background?

So, my name is Melinda Varley. I’m a Learning and Development Manager for JAS-ANZ. I have quite a varied background. I haven’t always been in learning and development. In fact, I have an accounting degree which is, you know, my background. But most of my working life has been in business management. So you know, financial management, business management, HR, L&D, and I’ve worked across all sorts of organisations from government. I was in Commonwealth Government with Defence for about 10 years. And I’ve worked with not for profits, including JAS-ANZ. I’ve worked for private enterprise. So I’ve got quite a varied background, which suits me perfectly, because I like a little bit of variety in what I do.

If you were talking to a new L&D professional, or someone coming into the role, what are some of the lessons that you’ve learnt leading JAZ-ANZ in your current role?

Yeah. Probably the key one, that I think has sort of supported me being able to, to do the job, I mean, now, but other roles—and what I didn’t mention before is I’ve had my own business as well, doing contract training, and so on before JAS-ANZ. But one of the key lessons I’ve got out of it is L&D—while it is a part of a business—still needs to be run like a business. So you need some business acumen to support your ability to deliver effectively against the strategy, the organisation or whatever the key thing is that you’re trying to deliver. So, you know, being good at managing budgets, being good at getting the right resources, being great, you know, training those resources, just making sure you’ve got the right structure and setup to your part of the organisation so that you can effectively deliver. So that’s one of the key lessons.

“One of the key lessons I’ve got out of it is L&D—while it is a part of a business—still needs to be run like a business.”

And I suppose I have that as a good lesson, because that’s my background, you know, I’ve come from that business management space. And I suppose one of the other key lessons for me is my staff, they are without them, we can’t deliver what we deliver. So to me making sure that they’re well trained, that they understand what their role is, and supporting them and having their back the whole time is very, very important for me. So that’s a big lesson is looking after your staff, managing your staff, because you’ll get the most out of them then. Yeah, it’s probably my two key lessons.

You’ve got a really interesting program at JAS-ANZ, can you tell us a little bit about the learning program you’re leading?

I’ll give you a bit of background. JAZ-ANZ is an acronym for joint accreditation system of Australia and New Zealand. Big words.

What we do is work to the Australian and New Zealand governments to provide accreditation services and manage sort of that overarching accreditation, certification range of programs that affect industry and help markets to perform more effectively. So, for example, we will go and accredit certification bodies who might come into your organisation and certify your Quality Management System or your product or your environment management, for example. So we’re kind of the auditors of the auditors if that makes sense. So in terms of what that means, for me, from a training perspective, I have staff and we have a range of contractors—probably upwards of around 100 contractors—who go out and do that assessing for us. So they’re the face of the business. So we need to make sure they understand how to do their auditing how you know, the standards and the schemes, and the different things that they need to be auditing the certification bodies against. So there’s quite a fair bit of internal training. And we’ve built some quite big learning programs to onboard but also to retrain all of our auditors over the last couple of years.

On the other side of the coin, I’ve got external training, we call it external training services. So we have the JAS-ANZ Accelerate Training Academy. And that Academy provides training for our certification bodies. And not just JAS-ANZ certification bodies—any certification bodies, internationally. And I will point out, we do work internationally, our auditors work all around the world, primarily. So we are—part of my delivery of the Academy’s training, is to ensure that we have training in the accreditation standards that those certification bodies have to meet, and any other sort of training that supports them to be able to do their job more effectively. So that’s our core client base, but we also do train scheme owners, organisations that are getting certified or are certified, just so that they understand the whole machination, I suppose, of conformity assessment and how it relates to their part of the programmes. So, yeah, so we have quite a lot of varied training that we have to give.

There’s a few cohorts there and some different stakeholders, too. So you’ve got the people you’re actually training, but then the services they deliver to align with government standards.

Or international standards. So the standards will be, for example, ISO IEC 1721, Part One, which is management system certification. So our assessors need to know how to audit the certification bodies to ensure that they’re meeting that standard. And then the certification body has a standard to comply with, when they’re certifying the organisation that they’re certifying.

It’s really interesting industry that we work in. One of the other key things that we’re about to launch in January is a program focused on bringing in the next generation to conformity assessment and learning about conformity assessment. So the JAS-ANZ Futures Program will be launched in January. And with the aim, we’re going to focus on the product certification area. But the aim of that program is to introduce people who are young people already in industry, sort of the up and coming next, you know, brilliant product, industry experts who can come and learn about conformity assessment, understand about standards and certification, and take all that back to industry and help improve the take up of accreditation certification, and therefore, you know, better products are being delivered to us as consumers.

You’ve got so many different cohorts there, from internal to external auditors. How do you how do you align your L&D strategy with your business strategy?

So, with JAS-ANZ, we have a statement of corporate intent that is developed and published and provided to the Australian and New Zealand governments. And that sets our strategy for the next three years. So my aim, and I could be part of that strategy development. We work quite closely with our general managers to put forward what we think from our part of the organisation, we can have an impact on the broader strategy. So but what I will take away from that sort of broader strategy is what are the different activities that I can do to help support that strategy? So then it comes down to, okay, for example, one of the key strategies in our current statement of corporate intent is to improve certification body performance.

Now, that’s not all just about training. There’s other parts of our organisation that, you know, are doing other projects to support that goal. My part of it is the academy and how we deliver the training and the quality of the training that we’re delivering to CABs. So hopefully in some way we can improve performance through the training because they understand what they need to and therefore can hopefully can apply it when they go out and do their auditing.

That’s quite interesting that they get you involved, and you’re one component of it but obviously not the whole thing. What’s the hardest part of that? What do you find to be quite challenging in that space, when they come with that three year objective, and they say, “This is where we want to get to”?

Yeah. So I have a fantastic general manager that I work to. And we have a very strong business planning focus every year. So we sit down as a broader team, we include all of our staff, across this team, and we really do look at you know, where is the organisation headed? We’ll get presentations, usually from our CEO and other general managers in the organisation, who will then sort of give us that view of where they see things heading. And then obviously, we need to think about, well, what does that mean for us? But also, what are the new things, the things that we think will have an impact in the future, for the organisation. So, we then go through a planning process. You know, and then off the back of that we’ve got business plans to develop, we’ve got budgets to develop, and obviously, that goes through an approval process with the leadership team. Obviously, I get out and talk to the leadership team. You know, I’d like them to understand where I’m coming from and what I think the activities that we’re doing that are going to do to support that broader, that broader strategy, the organisation.

“I get out and talk to the leadership team. I’d like them to understand where I’m coming from and what I think are the activities that we’re doing that are going to support… that broader strategy and the organisation.”

How do you decide what learning activities to do to accomplish those goals?

A really good question. So if I step back for when I first came into the organisation—so almost four years now—one of the things that I sort of picked up on really quickly was that we needed some new training for our assessors, our contract assessors that were, you know, the face of the organisation, they needed to be really good at and high quality auditors. And what we had at the time, probably wasn’t meeting that needs.

So you know, working with the general manager, who looks after that part of the organisation, or the contractor base, and the assessor base, the processes everything around that, we ran some focus groups with some key people within the organisation to really establish what is it that we need to train them in? So firstly to start, I facilitated this focus group and we—basically I started with, let’s throw out don’t even think about what we’ve got now. What is it we actually need? Yeah, and let’s work through what it is we need to get the outcomes that we want from our contractor base, when they’re out or our assessor base when they’re out doing the work that they do.

So we’ve built a proposed program that was surfaced and communicated out to those contractors who could provide some feedback that was put forward to the rest of the organisation, all the staff, they could provide feedback and also put up their hand to say, “Hey, I’d like to be involved in you know, developing some of that content, you know, I’m a bit of an SME in that space”. So, so it was consulting it out there, getting an agreement, and then obviously building the business case that went to the management leadership team for them to approve in the end, together with the budget.

And that was a really big undertaking, was probably about a two-year program that we did, and we kind of focused on getting the in-house stuff right. And then my next step was the Academy. So the Academy has been a goal of the organisation for a little while, and basically came out of the desire to support our certification bodies, to do the work that they do as effectively as possible. So the Academy really started with, that’s our audience, we need to build the training to support them. So the training being the accreditation standards that they have to meet, and that we go and audit them on. So, you know, we sent surveys out to them, what is it you need to know what are the courses aside from these are important or high priority for you? So we got that feedback from them and that enabled us to work out okay, here’s where we need to focus on our big cost development program. Really big cost development program, which is still ongoing, by the way, and probably will be for some time, but focusing on the key accreditation standards, we develop those first two, right at start of COVID.

COVID was actually a nice little break for us because we’re working from home we’re able to focus—and was a change of pace but ability to focus, too, for long periods of time on on this development program. And then obviously, we needed to get these courses reviewed, validated, checked to prove—you know, we wanted it to be extremely high quality, we were not willing to put out anything unless it was going to be of high value for our for our certification bodies. So, you know, and then the next step comes into well, how do we deliver it? So we start thinking about different ways. Okay, COVID’s here, we can’t do face to face. So what’s our next, you know, delivery mechanism? So it really was a lot of research, a lot of consultation, a lot of business planning, and, you know, putting all that together into a format that the senior leadership group could then make their decisions on and give us the okay to go ahead and budget.

That’s an amazing process that you’ve gone through to get there. What was the final document that you saw here, was it a business case?

It was a business case. Quite a large business case. You know, I’ve had to talk about the research in the consultation that had been done, it had to cover off on, you know, the different—you know, how we thought we should deliver that training. So what sort of learning management system did we need, you know, did we need facilitators? Which we agreed we did, because part of you know, my view, part of delivering good training, if it is going to be high quality, you’ve got to have that face to face component or Zoom or, you know, webinar component. Because you can put a lot of stuff online, they can read stuff, they can watch a video, but if they can’t talk with a facilitator, and put it into a contextual basis, helps them understand the application—and we’re talking, you know, schemes and standards that are very dry information, you know, you read a clause and go, “Yep, I think I understand the clause. But what does that really mean in reality?” So a lot of our training has a lot of contextualisation to it. But the point of the facilitator sessions is to give them, the learners, an opportunity to ask the questions, to do some activities, do some case studies, do some breakout rooms, and really sort of bring it to life, and then think about how it applies to them when they go back in the workplace.

So the business case, covered a lot of ground risk assessment. Everything and anything. Pricing of courses, you know, the whole gamut. So I really just handed, you know, to the senior leadership team, all of that research I’ve done, and then the recommendations for moving forward and developing the Academy. And yeah, I was very fortunate, we had a few questions, as I would expect from the senior leadership team, which I worked through with them, we made some adjustments to some of the recommendations that I’d put forward, and then it was right, go forth and make it happen. So that’s what we did.

On that data front, how important was it for you to make the decisions you did to put up that business case? And secondly, now that you’ve got a lot of those programs up and running, how important is that data to you strategically going forward?

Really important. So data was critical to the business case. So, you know, I had to do a lot of research on all the LMSs that were out there, you know, what was going to meet our needs. If we were going to go forward in this way, and deliver in a, you know, multifaceted program, what are all the different things that we needed to do that? So I had to do all that research, and I probably looked at about—at least 10, different LMSs, really dived into what do they offer? Would that work for us? You know, we’ve got to be able to sell courses. So can we set them up, you know, with a payment gateway, all those sorts of things. That data was critical to finding the right learning management system. The survey data from the certification bodies, and other key stakeholders that we thought training would suit, was absolutely essential for us in deciding which courses do we now go ahead and develop and deliver. So without that data, I couldn’t have built a solid business case. It was absolutely critical.

“Survey data… was absolutely essential. Without that data, I couldn’t have built a solid business case.”

And then I had to look at other things like resources budget, you know, and that data was also really critical. So building a budget of, you know, how we were going to deliver it and what the cost would be. So you know, without a bit of a business background, that would have been a really difficult process to go through. So data is absolutely critical. Now that we’ve got the training—and we’ve been up and running now for two years, I think, yeah, almost two years—the data, the feedback we get from students is absolutely essential to and from our facilitators as well. Absolutely essential for us to continue improving the courses that we deliver and improving the way that we deliver them. So, you know, we have gone to some training, being purely online where people can just go and do an eLearning module, and for that type of, whatever the content is that that works for that, but for our big standards that we deliver the training on, we needed that to be really comprehensively delivered. So we’ve really worked hard with our facilitators and with our learners on, you know, capturing their feedback, capturing the outcomes, you know, even looking at things like how have people answered the questions? Which questions do the majority get wrong? Have we got the question right? So we’ve done a lot of, you know, gathering of that data, we have case studies that are used for the learning component, but also assessments. So capturing the data on you know, are they answering that effectively? Have we written the case study? Well, if we haven’t, what do we need to tweak? So there’s been a lot of that sort of toing and froing with facilitators, because they’re the ones delivering it. So they know what the students are actually learning from it, and what’s working, what’s not in the actual training. So the data is just absolutely critical to everything we do.

Capturing the right data is difficult, though. So, you know, if I was to say, “Can we really confirm that we have a really good return on investment for the Academy?”, I would need to be measuring our client’s ability to implement the training that they’ve done, that’s difficult for us to do, yes, we don’t have the access to that data. But through the surveys that we do, you know, post course, etc, we should be able to capture more of that data. And that’s one of my plans in the future is to update our survey format, so that we capture some additional data, maybe a month to three months after the training, about you know, how well have you implemented what you’ve learned in that training in the work that you do? Has it improved your performance? You know, that sort of stuff? I know, it’s subjective, because it is self assessment by the learner, but it’s giving us some more data.

It allows you to sort of adjust or tweak that training, similar to like a Kirkpatrick evaluation model. It’s hard to show that ROI sometimes. And in place of that, how do you typically like to show value?

That’s where we’re definitely want to head. We’ve certainly captured the first couple of levels of that Kirkpatrick model, but I want to take it to the next level and start to try and build a case to show return on investment for the Academy.

So for me, at the moment showing value is how many people have have come in, you know, bought a course? Yeah, how many people have given us good feedback on the training? You know, it really comes down to you know, we’ve been very fortunate through the quality of what we’ve delivered in some of the initial training, we’ve had a couple of major scheme owners, who are international scheme owners have come to us to deliver big bodies of training. So the first one was in Southeast Asia, we trained about 60 people across two of the standards. You know, that was a great learning curve for us.

The other you know, to me, that is a testament that we were doing a good job. They’ve approached us and said, Hey, we were seeing what you’re doing with the academy. We’d like to be involved. And we think, you know, we have this major project, it was a United Nations project to deliver. Can you help us out? Absolutely. You know, so we had translation of materials, we had all sorts of, you know, elements that we had to consider there. The other company we’re now working very closely with on an ongoing basis, we’re training organisations that have applied for certification. So that they understand conformity assessment, they understand the standard that their auditor is working to. So they will then hopefully, be more cognisant and understanding of the auditing process that they are on the receiving end of. And hopefully that will make the process a little bit more, I suppose, easier for them to be a part of and get the outcomes that they need.

What does technology look like to deliver all this?

Technology is absolutely essential. So you know, particularly with the pandemic coming in, we really had to look at flipping our training to make it all completely online. So having the right platforms having the right LMS that can deliver all the different components that we need to deliver, you know, because of course, one of our certifications, as accreditation standard courses will include, you know, some webinars, some online modules, some case studies, some assessments and knowledge, quizzes, you know, a bunch of activities. So we needed something that could cater for all those activities, but also cater for that course to be delivered multiple times to different audiences that are different cohorts. So we needed the ability to have one course page and be able to deliver the whole lot ongoing. So that was a hard find, really hard find.

Then it was okay, well, we now need to deliver virtually, what are the platforms we’re going to use? So we landed on Zoom, that is the corporate platform that we use for all of our assessing, and auditing as well. So Zoom has actually been really good for us from that perspective. But it’s also the other things right now we’re going through a process of preparing for this Futures Program that we’re about to launch, well, we want to have a lovely conference platform that the learners can come in with participants can come in and interact with it, with presenters run some webinars, run the courses, you know, from the from our LMS through there. So it’s about the experience of the user. That is the really important bit for us when we’re looking at all of these different technical, you know, the tech outcomes that we need. So we work really closely with our IT team, IT manager to—you know, they’ll do a review of the different platforms. Yeah, even just simple things, like, we run webinars externally for clients. So how do we get them to register for those webinars without sending an email and then sending us you know, 20 emails back saying, yeah, yeah, we’re all coming. We wanted something that would capture that information of who’s coming. And we could use that, you know, data ongoing for other things as well. So, you know, we had to find a solution to that.

“It’s about the experience of the user. That is the really important bit for us when we’re looking at all of… the tech outcomes that we need.”

So everything that we do, you know, even developing courses, finding the right programs, software to develop modules. So yeah, yeah, it’s been a fantastic journey. In fact, we’ve really enjoyed, you know, working out what works for us, what’s going to work for our clients, and then being able to deliver a high quality outcome at the end, using that technology.

How do you test and validate the learner experience? We built a system, so we find we have an inherent bias of how things should work.

Yeah, really good point. So in terms of that usability for our users, we, same as you, we know the system really well. But that’s okay for us. But we have to be really cognisant that we’ve got new learners, I’ve never used a system. So we develop, you know, system, how tos, you know, if you need to update, or upload a case study or your answers for case study, here’s a little PDF, open it up: Step-by-step instructions. we validate through our customer feedback, post course. We also validate by actually jumping in on the live webinars, partly also to review performance review of facilitators, but also part of what I’m looking for when I’m, you know, reviewing jump webinars, how much the user or the participants of the course actually interacting. Yeah, because they’ve got the video screen off, they’re not interested or has a facilitated drawing them in, they’re really actively engaged in the conversation, they want to be part of it. You know, are they learning? You know, so, I think that sort of face-to-face stuff, I’ll often actually bring clients who have just done a course and ask them questions. How was the experience for you? We certainly do occasionally. Have a client contact us and say, I can’t work out how to find whatever it is on the course. And we’ll jump straight on our Teams, Zoom, whatever, and we’ll walk them through it all send them, you know, instructions on how to do it. So we’ve got a service desk that you know, we can actually capture all of those issues that arise And to be honest, the current LMS we’ve got, we’ve got less issues than we’ve ever had with our previous LMS. So that that’s a bonus for us. Less time on sort of that administrative—which was quite a burden.

Yeah, yeah. So, no, it’s yeah, it’s really just understanding from the user’s perspective, ask them that, you’ve got to ask the question, and you’ve got to talk to them about it, whether that’s through a survey or face to face. And their word of mouth with other clients, or potential clients. So yeah, we’ve got to make sure it’s a good experience.

A big challenge for a lot of L&D professionals is motivating users or learners within your environment. How have you found the best way to really get them to turn that webcam on, switch on and engage?

It’s really hard one because, you know, as we often say, sometimes we have facilitators who have that problem of the, you know, occasional lack of engagement. One, they’re adult learners, and everyone learns in different ways. So some, for some people who are quite, let’s say, introverted, being front and centre and seeing themselves on a camera, you know, on a screen and having to answer direct questions can be really confronting.

So as a facilitator, you need to be aware of the differences, you know, different styles of learning, and also that some people that may not actually work for them that way, you also—and for us training internationally, we need to be very cognisant of the different cultural styles as well. So in some of the, you know, we’ve worked with delivering training to many in the Asian community. Now, for them having the video on is not common, so they don’t feel comfortable with that. And also being open and you know, talking with everybody else, may not always be as comfortable for them as well, but they’d love to use the chat. So they might ask a question in the chat. So we’ve got to be just really careful that we don’t say everybody should be learning this way, because they don’t.

So when we develop training, we develop it with enough variety, hopefully, that it supports a different learning styles of people and that, you know, they can either learn from the online module or, you know, for those who like that face to face, and that discussion and the interaction and the activity-based learning, you’ve got that in the webinar as well, or you’ve got that in the case study on the online materials. So, yeah, we’re very cognisant of trying to consider all the different ways that we can present the information so that it’s suitable, palatable to the majority of learners.

So you’ve obviously got a structure that you’re guiding them through, but then you’re allowing them to self-direct activities.

Oh, absolutely. Yeah. So a lot of the activities we have might be—so if it’s the facilitated session, via webinar—we might have breakout rooms. So we’ve we’ve just talked about, you know, a certain part of the standard and how that applies. And what that means in, you know, for a certification body doing their job. Let’s—we’ll throw in a breakout room with a one or two very specific questions, and we’ll send them off for 10 minutes to go away and just explore that could be a simple question like, well, if we’re just talking about, you know, the processes of a certification body meeting this standard, well, what do you see in your organisation, are there things that might need improving based on what you’ve learned today? So they can explore that as a group and come back and present to the rest of the group. And again, there’s more learning happening in all of that.

So, you know, polls are a really good way to have a quick snapshot for the facilitator. Are they getting it? Are they understanding it? Have they connected with what we just talked about? And it’s also another opportunity when you’re presenting the answer to explore that, you know, the reasons for that answer more.

And then the case studies, the majority of our major training programs, where we deliver with a facilitator, we will have a case study at the end of each session. So it might be three-hour webinar, it could be full day training. That case study will be a real life situation, you know, JAS-ANZ come to your certification body to undertake an audit. We’ve gone through this process. We’ve identified these, you know, we’ve identified a potential issue you know, and And we give them a set of, a bit of information around a scenario, then we give them questions to explore now what we try and do is get them as the facilitator to facilitate the discussion around what the answers might be to those questions. That is an assessment that they’ll go away and finish individually, but they have an opportunity to explore it as a group. Again, that’s where the learning is happening. Here’s a real life situation, how do we apply the standard to it?

You mentioned there that you’re trying to give facilitators a bit of feedback and work with them to to help them deliver the training. What do you see the differences between training the trainer, if you will, and the end learner?

So training our facilitators, we have a Train the Trainer program. So interesting, you use the term because that’s a term we use, where—I’ll step back a little bit. Our facilitators are all come from our assessor base. So they have worked with JAS-ANZ, have been out doing assessments, they understand the process. So we bring them on board with that knowledge and expertise, and hopefully a background in facilitation as well. So we have a pretty rigid Expression of Interest process, recruitment process we go through. Once we’ve agreed that they’re the right trainer, we think there’ll be the right person for the job, we put them through this three-day Train the Trainer. So a lot of that is training them in the standards that they’re going to deliver and the key things they need to cover in that training. But it also is how to be a facilitator. You know, how to manage on Zoom, how to use Zoom, you know, polls, breakout rooms, all the different components that you can use there. And also then expectations around how we want them to be, you know, what a good facilitator looks like, and how they manage those conversations, sharing their experiences with the learners is a really important and critical part of the learning for the user, the end participant. So it’s giving them the opportunity to really see where we’re coming from and what we’re trying to do and the quality that we want to deliver.

So we’ll actually put them through one of the courses that has been delivered by another facilitator. So they can see how the program works, how all the different elements come together, and what they’re required to do in the facilitated session. Now, every facilitator is different, because of all the different styles and they’ve got different ways of delivering. So we also have to be cognisant of that, but you know, we have a certain level of quality we expect from them. And, and so you know, going through regular reviews of them, their performance, their marking of students, you know, we’ve been consistent with the marking guides that are provided to them. But we give them a quite comprehensive set of training materials to deliver as well. So, facilitator guides that step them through, you know, day one, day two, day three, if it’s a three day programme, they’re delivering all the case study, questions, answers, everything is delivered to them. So, you know, they can’t fail. If they know the materials, they can just go out there and deliver and be themselves and enjoy the experience, hopefully, and teaching people what they know so well.

So for anybody who’s listening, reading or watching has benefit, your courses are a bit longer format. How long are these courses that you’re delivering here?

If I take one of my main standards that we deliver training for, we’ve got two formats. We’ve got the three-day accelerated version, so you can be in front of the Zoom screen for three days straight and you’ll get the course delivered by the facilitator. You’ll also have online modules that are also there for you to review and use, you know, ongoing, and then I’ve got the case study activities and knowledge quiz. So for each day, there’ll be one case study activity and one knowledge quiz, aboutt 10 questions, multiple choice, that sort of format. So that’s our accelerated version. Some people like that because they need to get trained quickly, and they can get the job done quickly.

The way we know—the other format is a four week format. And this fits in with those who’ve got a really busy schedule. Basically, they’ll have some an online module to review, maybe about six to eight hours of module content. And then now will attend a three-hour webinar each week. And that three-hour webinar with the facilitator is bringing together everything that they’ve learned in that module, and applying it through different activities and case studies, etc, in that training, but also, you know, learning from the facilitator on their experience on that part of the standard. That’s repeated week two and week three. And then week four is just finishing off their assessments. So that format is probably the one we get the most users coming through.

We do also have some shorter courses that might be on very short, sweet topics. So we’ll offer them it’s just online modules that that people can do. And then an assessment. We are big on having assessments. You know, as I said earlier, one of our main organisation strategies is to improve certification body performance. Well, if we’re going to deliver training to them, and we don’t have a knowledge assessment or some sort of assessment at the end, we can’t you know, we can’t validate that we think they’ve learned anything through that training. So yeah. And that’s actually a good point. Another validation point is the assessments and how well they do.

My last question is: If anybody’s interested in finding out about your assessments or becoming an assessor, where can they find you?

Jas-anz.org. That’s the best place to go, jump into our website. But otherwise, you can send me an email. I’m sure you’ll provide the details for them. Really happy to talk with anyone who’s interested in doing the training or finding out more about the training or if they want to be an assessor for JAS-ANZ because they’ve got a background in in industry? Certainly do contact us and we can put you on to the right people.

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