Recruiting with a touch of human – Katrina Collier [Interview] |LeadersHum

About Katrina Collier

Katrina is a keynote speaker in the field of hiring. Well known for her book, “The Robot-Proof Recruiter”, she is also the co-host of the #socialrecruiting show podcast. She is the founder of the event disruptHR London and facilitator for The Searchologist. Besides being a lover of HR, she has also taken up roles as a business mentor and a product advisor. Helping organizations get free from the blockages in recruiting and hiring.

Aishwarya Jain

We have the pleasure of welcoming Katrina Collier today to our interview series, LeadersHum. I’m Aishwarya Jain from the peopleHum team. Before we begin, just a quick intro of peopleHum. peopleHum is an end-to-end, one-view, integrated human capital management automation platform, the winner of the 2019 global Codie Award for HCM that is specifically built for crafted employee experiences and the future of work with AI and automation technologies. We run the peopleHum blog and video channel which receives upwards of 200,000 visitors year and publish around 2 interviews with well-known names globally, every month.

Aishwarya

Welcome Katrina, we’re thrilled to have you.

Katrina

Hello, Thank You for having me.

Aishwarya

Alright, let me begin with the first question. Could you tell us a little bit more about the concept of The Robot-Proof Recruiter?

Katrina

Yeah. So I am very proud to be the author of ‘The Robot-Proof Recruiter’. I was actually approached by the publisher Kogan Page to write a book and the first thing that struck to my mind was that I want to write a book, which is all about putting the human first, getting recruiters away from thinking that tools can do every part of the job and just demystify it showing “How to use technology to create a better engagement with people so that they recruit people better.”

“How to use technology to create a better engagement with people so that they recruit people better.”

I think there’s been a lot of hiding behind technology and not doing as good as a job as they could, so it basically goes through the entire recruitment process and it’s way bigger than you think because it’s really about like, how you’re even presenting yourself online, how you treat people through the recruitment process through employee experience on the other side because all of that impacts talent acquisition now. So yes, it’s just human first, is that the best way to describe it.

Aishwarya

Right, that’s wonderful. And what do you think is the most important skill or skills that recruiters should have for talent acquisition strategies?

Katrina

Obviously, that’s a really huge question, because it could be so many different skills. But the ones that I think are lacking these days, which really need to develop, are those things that make us uniquely human. “Our adaptability, our curiosity, our empathy and compassion, our persuasive skills, those kinds of things that really, really need to be developed”

“Our adaptability, our curiosity, our empathy and compassion, our persuasive skills, those kinds of things that really, really need to be developed”

…because it’s not just enough for me to find you and talk to you about a job.

Now it’s like there’s so much more involved and it’s really been about to put yourself in the situation of the candidate and to really understand their needs because they have so much choice now, to persuade them to come to your organization, it is a much bigger job than it used to be.

It used to be I found you, I talked to you, come work for me now. Now It’s like I’m up against the noise of the Internet and how people are perceiving you and the company. So it’s much more important that I am really developing and there are human skills and that I stand out from the noise and you think about your normal day, where you’re constantly interrupted, so recruiters try to get your attention and talk to you about a job, you’re just like, Enough! So, it’s those really human skills that I think if recruiters developed them, then they’re gonna really stand out.

Aishwarya

And is it true that candidate engagement is a very important part of the entire process? And how do you make this better for the candidate?

Katrina

So it’s not a case of – Well, I found you on LinkedIn and I sent you an email, and you just replied, I mean, it’s just not gonna happen these days, even with what’s going on now, in certain sectors, there are still gonna be big problems.

So healthcare sectors, in technology, there will still be a shortage of people, people have so much more choice. So candidate engagement again is about not just the finding, because it could be. “You know, people hear about an opportunity at your company and they’re looking at you and how you treat your customers, your employees, and your candidates before they get in touch with you.”

“You know, people hear about an opportunity at your company and they’re looking at you and how you treat your customers, your employees, and your candidates before they get in touch with you.”

It’s like there are lots of places they can go and look at people. So you’ve got to get someone’s attention and hold their attention and pull them through the recruitment process, and that includes stopping them from ghosting out of the process. So, you know, it’s like in a relationship where you would just disappear. They’re doing that in the recruitment process. So if you’re not focused on keeping them engaged and informed and giving them clarity and certainty all the way through the process, they just drop out. So more human!

Aishwarya

Absolutely. And even I think after, you know after you reject the candidates after that too, you have to kind of engage with them and give them the reason as to why you didn’t offer them, right?

Katrina

Yeah, absolutely. I think right now, while we’ve got COVID-19 as well, it’s gonna be very telling how you reject your staff, your current staff, how you let them go. How you treat them in this process is going to be impacting future recruitment and how you treat candidates, how you reject them, how you say, “Look, I’m really sorry.” So, like that second-place candidate who you may actually want to pick up in six months’ time.

If you don’t do it right, you won’t be able to see it. It’s their ability to go online and you talk about you and you know what we’re like. If we’re disgruntled, we go online and we talk. We get people’s attention. You know, I have a problem getting something done, I’ll go to Twitter to get attention from that company. It’s the same thing.

So, yeah, absolutely. All of it, I mean to me literally it is from how you treat your customers and your employees and your candidates, all of that impact. It is also important to give them feedback.

Plus, there’s also that element of paying them for their time that they’ve spent on your premises interviewing. And that one thing that you give them, that could set them up for an amazing job. “Just by giving them that crucial thing. ‘Oh, you weren’t explaining this quite well, as you could have’. And then they go in and they do it better. And they get another job. You could change someone’s life. It is very important.”

“Just by giving them that crucial thing. ‘Oh, you weren’t explaining this quite well, as you could have’. And then they go in and they do it better. And they get another job. You could change someone’s life. It is very important.”

Aishwarya

Right, and when a candidate enters any building, any corporate building, what is the first impression that they should get from that corporate building?

Katrina

So I did some facilitation with a company recently, so it’s sort of working with the hiring managers, their team, get them to treat people better, make recruitment better. A common problem with a lot of hate. So I walked into the physical building, one, I could walk in. There were no steps to stop me if perhaps I was disabled. But I was greeted so brilliantly by the receptionist and I was treated so kindly, we even had a joke about, like, the seating in the lobby wasn’t really good. If you sat in it, there was no way to elegantly stand up.

So if you’re about to interview, I’m never gonna get up without making a shocking impression because it was just the design of the seat, it looks funky but I wasn’t sitting in it. So it’s like, yes, that matters. That is what I was really talking about was online impression. Their online reputation doesn’t match what it’s actually like working there. I could see that they all got on and they had a really good time, and they talked to each other and supported the other. None of that was showing online. In fact, it was showing that they don’t look so. “So sometimes, the impression online isn’t correct either.”

“So sometimes, the impression online isn’t correct either.”

So these are things that need to be worked through.

Aishwarya

Well, I mean you don’t know what the first impression that you get when you see them on twitter, when you see their profile. They might be very different in person.

Katrina

So, yeah, they can’t be, so another example, with the company. I went to Berlin, and everything that they showed online was exactly what they were like in person. And that’s what you want. You don’t want there to be a disparity. It also gives people the opportunity to de-select.

So like anybody working in health care at the moment, it’s like a really, really trying time. But it’s a really difficult role. So if you were genuinely showing everyone what’s genuinely like to work there, then people can choose that or not choose that as their career. And that actually saves you a lot of money as well.

So both ways, like just genuinely you need to show who you are. I mean, I have an entire chapter that it’s basically like “Do you look like a company worth talking to? Do your hiring managers look worth talking to? All of that matters. Just be real.”

“Do you look like a company worth talking to? Do your hiring managers look worth talking to? All of that matters. Just be real.”

Aishwarya

Really. I mean, in a fake world, let’s try to be real as much as possible.

Katrina

And I think what the really interesting thing about this COVID-19 virus is flattening everything. It’s impacting everybody.

There’s not one person on this planet that this isn’t touching, well, unless they really live remotely, maybe in the middle of Australia somewhere. But it’s spreading all around the world, and it is leveling, and “It’s giving us an opportunity to support the locals, to support the community, to be a lot more genuine rather than the fake world.”

“It’s giving us an opportunity to support the locals, to support the community, to be a lot more genuine rather than the fake world.”

And so it’s almost backing up what I’m saying. Like be real, be genuine, treat people well, treat the community well. And also, I think the joyous part with such an opportunity for companies is everyone is now having to work remotely, so it’s kind of blowing the myth that it can’t be done. So going forward it’s going to be really interesting.

Aishwarya

Yeah, I think once we come out of the pandemic, it’s going to be really interesting how the world of recruitment is going to change.

So what I want to understand next was you know, what is your take on the automation of hiring processes? Because in an age of artificial intelligence and machine learning, is it here to stay, is it a good thing or how does the human element evolve to accommodate this technology automation?

Katrina

I think my concern with automation is it’s possibly not being used in the right areas. So I see some brilliant examples where you’ve got hundreds of drivers coming to a website and there’s a chatbot on the website because they’re coming whenever they want to look for jobs because that’s all that company recruits, right? It’s a courier company. Drivers, drivers, drivers, drivers and it’s great.

So a chatbot’s there when they’re communicating, telling them whether they’re gonna proceed through the application or not. Can you carry boxes of this weight? Wait, no, I can’t lift that. You’re not gonna proceed that sort of thing, So that could be brilliant. But that’s people coming, so there’s some automation there.

But when it comes to finding people and getting in touch with people, then I have my concerns. There are some AI hosting tools, which kind of worries me because a lot of people don’t know how to write their CVs, their resumes. They don’t know how to write their LinkedIn profile. I was talking to a head of talent acquisition this morning. I mean you recruit, why haven’t you got any information on your own profile?

No wonder you’re not getting a job like, how does anyone know what you do? What have you achieved? So if we’ve got tools trying to find those, we know what the head of talent acquisition does, I’m not convinced that the AI does. Obviously, we’ve also seen some concerns around biased algorithms and things like that. So “I think that you should use AI where it will give clarity and certainty.”

“I think that you should use AI where it will give clarity and certainty.”

It will keep people automated through the recruitment process keep in touch with them, make it very human.

So I often talk about if you apply for a job when you get that auto email and then any emails that follow, make it really human, make it really like you’re in my contact as you’re dealing with me, Katrina. You don’t hear from me I get busy, you don’t chase me up. One in 100 applicants would chase you up. It is nowhere near the level of recruiter status, you know, it’s just that make it really personal.

That’s one way to provide clarity and certainty. But I think too often it’s used in the wrong part of the recruitment process, so it has its place, but I think it takes a step out of the recruitment process and maybe apply for a job at your own company and go all the way through every single step and see where you’re falling down.

Is there a place for automation to make that better, for you, the company and the hiring manager and the candidate or, you know, maybe something else needs to happen. So it’s a case of like stepping it through and really picking right as it goes. So it has its place. I just don’t think we’re there yet to be able to go.

We can do it all just using technology. I’m not sure we’ll ever get there because there are still tellers in the banks and the automatic teller machine has been around for 50 years, and that’s just for taking cash out. So I don’t know, but this is people’s lives and careers we are talking about.

Aishwarya

So you’re saying that we are not using AI correctly, we’re not using in the right way that it’s supposed to be used?

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